On the other hand it must be easy to do the angled rebate.
Or if flat, do not use the solera to glue it up. Use a couple C's...
Sorry not much help
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| Classical Top to Neck Question http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=15176 |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:24 am ] |
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I have been looking through everything I have relative to guitar construction, and no one seems to address this directly. When joining the top to the neck, you have to rebate the neck for the thickness of the top(everyone covers that), but no one mentions angling the rebate to match the angle of the neck in the Solera. I realize it is only about 0.75*, but it is an angle that would, at some point create a hump, or dip, in the top, NO? Logic says rebate at the angle, but I wanted to check before making that cut. Also, it seems to me that if you don't allow for the angle, you may not get a good glue joint there. My guess is that I should support the neck by the thickness of the top, and scribe the angle before cutting. |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:30 am ] |
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I really don't think it is an issue. If there is any hump, it is not noticeable, at least i could not detect anything wrong. And, before planing the bottom of the fingerboard, you are going to sand/scrape the spruce a bit as well. |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:50 am ] |
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On the other hand it must be easy to do the angled rebate. Or if flat, do not use the solera to glue it up. Use a couple C's... Sorry not much help |
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| Author: | DP LaPlante [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:04 am ] |
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The slight lift of the neck as maintained by the solera would require that the top of the foot/neck block be relieved at a very slight angle. In a practical sense however it is so slight that not doing it does not make a big difference considering the sanding needed once the top bindings and purflings are in. As mentioned before the amount of work needed to fit the fretboard is also a factor which negates the issue. Though frankly, it is easy enough to allow for it with a couple passes of a rasp. I would recommend though that the neck and top be glued together on the solera. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:33 am ] |
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Thanks Guys. I agree with you Dave. It has to be easy enough to do, and why create extra work later for the lack of a few minutes to get it right to start with. I also agree that gluing in the Solera would be cleaner, particularly since I'll be using the Romanillos wedged neck joint, and everything needs to line up right, with the little lip on the top that sits on the web of the neck joint. |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:39 am ] |
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I have been trying to angle the rebate to match the neck angle, but I really can't tell any difference from the first one, which was just level. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:53 am ] |
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It is a pretty small angle - couple of millimeters over 325mm. |
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| Author: | DP LaPlante [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:56 am ] |
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Waddy, Are you also using the Romanillos method of the sides sitting flat on the surface of the solera enclosing the top which is clamped to the raised and curved surface of the workboard? In this method the top is trimmed to the inside profile of the sides with a small "horn" at the neck end which creates the right spacing between the neck join and soundhole edge. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:03 am ] |
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Right. I have cut my top to exact dimensions, and have the raised and scooped lower bout. I did include the little lip, but I still have a little cleaning up on the slots in the neck to do, so I will probably have to make adjustments. Question, Dave, is it better to have a fully carved neck at the heel, outside, or leave final carving until after joining? |
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| Author: | DP LaPlante [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:12 am ] |
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I like to have the profile of the heel accurate and well defined with the exception of a mm or so on either side at the fretboard joining surface. It's not neccessary to carve the heel to any greater extent at this stage. Another important subtlety is to leave the surfaces where the sides meet the heel without glue. This makes for easier final carving and a cleaner joint at the end. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:20 am ] |
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I think Shawn had mentioned that. My intention was to only glue the wedges on the inside and leave the sides unglued on the outside of the joint. Do you glue the sides to the wedges, or does the pressure hold them in place? Don't know why I got the impression that one of the reasons for joining this way was ease of repair if the joint ever had to be disassembled, and it could be done without damage to the ribs. |
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| Author: | vachterm [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:31 am ] |
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i once calculated that i need (if memoey serves me well) a 0.347 degress rebate if i want the nut end to be 2mm taller than the plane of the top. personally, ive tried anything i could think of in terms of the neck to body angle on a classical. 1. angled rebate + side slots diagonal to the rebate 2. angled rebate + side slots diagonal to the face of the neck 3. striaght rebate 4. extra deep rebate then plane the neck face to "fix" the gap(Geza Burgdhart style). all systems worked(for me) and none seemed to be any better than the other(to me). Udi. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:44 am ] |
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Thanks Udi. |
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| Author: | DP LaPlante [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:19 am ] |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:10 pm ] |
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Thanks for that Dave. Check my thread "Holiday Shop Time - Progress (pics)" and let me know if I'm on the right track. I did my first trial side bend today and put it all in the Solera to see how things fit up. |
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| Author: | Marc [ Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:56 am ] |
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Waddy, I've seen this question come up a lot, I asked it myself on my first guitar. As some of already said, it is a tiny angle. I make a rebate in the plane of the fingerboard with the depth equal to the thickness of the top, glue on the top, then fix the top and neck on to my solera--I have a 2mm drop on my solera at the head so there is a very minor forced bend. My heel slots are perpendicular to the plane of the fingerboard so they would now be not quite 90 degrees to the top when fit to the solera. I glue the tail block on, join the sides to the top, the angle is so small the sides fit without any strain in the slots. Once the sides are glued the angle is fixed. There is a bend so when it comes time to glue on the fingerboard there is a tiny gap under the 12th fret location as a result of the angle, this is easily closed by scraping the underside of the fingerboard near the sound hole before attaching. It is confusing in cumipiano, I emailed him a few years back and asked some questions, he builds his classical with the neck in the plane of the top--no angle on his solera, then puts a taper on his fingerboard toward the soundhole to acheive a similar result. |
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| Author: | Marc [ Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:05 am ] |
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Edit second sentence second paragraph. 'I make my rebate for my top (on the inner heel) in the same plane as the neck with the depth...' Edit third sentence second paragraph. '...perpendicular to the plane of the neck...' |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:43 am ] |
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Thanks, Marc. I think I'm going to try to generate the angle. It should be easy enough. And, like you say, any variant should be minute. |
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| Author: | Bill Bergman [ Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:31 am ] |
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See the current GAL article by Eugene Clark. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:16 pm ] |
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Thanks, Bill, I'll look at that. I got the Mag, but didn't read it all. Got interrupted, and never got back to it. |
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As an illustration to anyone who might have trouble visualizing this, here is the "horn" of the top contacting the plane of the neck at the 12th fret position. The top edge of the sides can be seen on either side with their uppermost edge flush to the plane of the top. 